Published: April 6, 2023

Stefani H听 0:06 听
Welcome to another episode of Creative Distillation. Your hosts Jeff and Brad from the 麻豆影院 is Leeds School of Business discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. Previously on Creative Distillation, Brad and Jeff conducted field research at in downtown Los Angeles. Speaking with co founder about the brewery's history and why she thinks they make the best beer in LA. This time, we're still at Hi Def, joined by , associate professor of social entrepreneurship at and Professor in the . Together, they organize and hosts the social entrepreneurship conference, which just celebrated its 19th year. They join Brad and Jeff to discuss the origin of the conference, its importance and impact, and the productive relationships that have grown from it. Enjoy and cheers!

Jeff听 1:11 听
Welcome to Creative distillation, where we distill entrepreneurship research into actionable insights. My name is Jeff York, research director at the Leeds School of Business Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the 麻豆影院, joined by my co host.

Brad听 1:27 听
Hey, Jeff, it's Brad Warner here and it is great to see you from downtown Los Angeles.

Jeff听 1:33 听
We're still in downtown Los Angeles. We haven't left yet. If you listen to the last episode, we had an awesome discussion about the trials and tribulations of midlife crisis.

Brad听 1:43 听
And starting a brewery the de COVID. Parade during COVID was amazing. That's our second brewery that we've heard that story. No.

Jeff听 1:51 听
I mean, that kind of shows the passion that the people in this industry have. I mean, they're they're not. They're not sitting there optimizing and thinking like, Okay, what would be the rational, best time for me to start this business? No, they're just launching because they love the product. They love making it.

Brad听 2:09 听
Oh, yeah. And the other thing is any plan that you make or any sort of long term plan, it never holds, right? I mean, you can you can do the best planning in the world. And there's craziness. That happens, right? Yeah, life interjects in some way or another, oh,

Jeff听 2:23 听
should introduce our two guests. We have Professor Joe Kikko, who holds the Nereo on research directorship of social entrepreneurship, and is also the Birmingham social enterprise lab professor at the Lloyd Greif Center for Entrepreneurial Studies at the USC Marshall School of Business. We also have Professor Sophie Bock, who is the Larry and Barbara sharp Professor of Entrepreneurship at the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. Thank you both for being here. Well, thank you. Yeah, these are two of my absolute favorite people in the entire field.

Brad听 2:52 听
And by the way, Jeff's just not saying this. He's teed you up to me for a year. So this, this is not just Jeff saying something to be nice. No, I don't think

Jeff听 3:03 听
so. I mean, and I haven't seen either of you and like what

Sophie Bacq听 3:07 听
is happening first. I mean,

Jeff听 3:10 听
I didn't go to the Academy, a management meeting this last year where I would have seen that we were there. Yeah, I want to see you guys. So I didn't see anybody. So I'm even having like a longer like COVID time work than everybody else. It's so weird. So I saw Shawn Hi. This morning. That was amazing. Haven't seen him in like three years, just been wild. Like seeing all these people. And this is the first time. I mean, the reason we're here other than, you know, going and drinking beer at this amazing place. I'd have Murray in downtown Los Angeles is the social entrepreneurship Research Conference.

Jill Kickul听 3:39 听
Yeah, absolutely. This is like, what is it the three years we have not been on? We've been online for three years. Yeah, we

Sophie Bacq听 3:45 听
did two years online. And two years ago, we convened at Indiana University. Yeah.

Jill Kickul听 3:49 听
Then the year before, but so we swapped Yeah. Indiana.

Unknown Speaker听 3:53 听
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You were there earlier. And

Jeff听 3:56 听
then like, then COVID happened shortly thereafter. And we didn't see but what

Brad听 4:02 听
a different world between online and in person.

Unknown Speaker听 4:06 听
Absolutely. I mean, we're just super super stoked to be back in person. I mean, just see the people I mean, I've seen here in the back of

Jeff听 4:20 听
the social entrepreneurship policy that just goes with you everywhere.

Unknown Speaker听 4:23 听
But the the enthusiasm is really high. We're getting pictures from our guests and attendees coming from all over the US but also from abroad international snapping pictures that you actually should not you know, we're finally

Jeff听 4:40 听
so we're so psyched we were able to be here with the podcast because we're gonna be able to like you know, as we say in qualitative research in NVivo. Document this we're gonna be like trying to grab people in the hallway, going to sessions, annoying everyone and then offering free drinks during the reception tomorrow night to see if anyone will Come and talk with us. So how can we get professors to talk? It's so it's such it's a mirror bunch, well hold forth on their ideas and talk about things. So. So this is the 19th annual social entrepreneurship Research Conference. Correct. And I think I met you, Gil, at the precursor. It can it wasn't that long ago. I don't remember it

Sophie Bacq听 5:23 听
must have been 15 years.

Jeff听 5:26 听
Like we met at the

Unknown Speaker听 5:27 听
series of social entrepreneurship, and that was, yeah, international social.

Jeff听 5:31 听
Yeah. Because we met in Copenhagen Business School. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I was I was a we doctoral student, as presenting a paper about encode demand and about half.

Brad听 5:41 听
This is exciting for our listeners. I

Jeff听 5:42 听
know. Would you like me to read? Would you like me to discuss include?

Brad听 5:46 听
No. No, but I'd like to hear about what's the point of the conferences? What's going on? Yeah. How did you get all these people together? And what are the goals here?

Stefani H听 5:59 听
Yeah, a little bit

Unknown Speaker听 6:00 听
about background. So trying you. When did you first come on board? So

Unknown Speaker听 6:05 听
so my first one I attended was in 2009. Before you were to New York, and then I moved to New York, I was mentored by Jill on a visiting daddy ship. So I was doing that finishing my my doctoral studies from Belgium. But Gina hosted me and mentored me for two years at NYU Stern, and you involve me right away. We the conference in 2010. So that's, that's how long?

Brad听 6:26 听
Yeah, so do these conferences, foster relationships like that?

Unknown Speaker听 6:30 听
Yeah. I mean, people, people see their co authors, or they establish those relationships with the papers and people. You know, it's a small enough conference where people just love to, like, interact with each other. And we are beyond I mean, we're social. We're social plus, I think we're Yes, yeah. Because we really do enjoy the field. We have such a passion for what we're doing in the field. And I think it's, it is become a community. Absolutely. Yeah.

Brad听 6:56 听
This is kind of a thread between our

Unknown Speaker听 6:57 听
that's the key word. Yeah, that's community. And, and it's absolutely true for those who can act in every year and those who cannot I think they remain part of the community, there are ties that get formed. And you know, even if we didn't meet in person the past few years, or even if some have just the ability to come every three or five years, the bonds are there. We have returnees from seven years ago who were like, Oh, finally, I'm back. And so the community grows, you know, we we usually tend to have 50% returnees and then 50% Yeah.

Jeff听 7:32 听
Again, I was like, Well, I'll start just reaching out to people, I'll know everyone in the program and start inviting them to be on the podcast. And I'm like, don't know them. Don't know that. I Yeah. Okay. Nevermind, your new plan?

Brad听 7:46 听
Absolutely. I love that. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker听 7:48 听
you get new ideas all the time. And it's just it's wonderful to see like, especially the new people coming. And they're they fresh eyes. And it just gives us you know, kind of really a new insights in terms of what the conference is all about.

Brad听 8:01 听
I love it. I think that that's really well.

Jeff听 8:03 听
I think it's really important historically, what this conference is meant, because like, for the longest time, if you said you wanted to study social entrepreneurship, or then it was sort of like, well, okay, that's lovely. Good luck with that person. You know, you're cute. That was certainly my experience in my early days of what I was doing research wise. And I think having this place where people come together, support each other and say, You know what, that's actually a cool thing to study. I like what you're doing, you're a cool person doing a cool thing. Let me help you. And then you start to get that cohort of people. And I think the conference has done a lot to raise the status of the I don't view it as a separate field. I know a lot of people do. I view it as it's just part of entrepreneurship. But for those that do view it as a separate field, or even as I do think it's an art largely overlooked part of entrepreneurship. I think having great speakers in and really serious scholars talking about this year in Europe, it is totally raised the status of this area, there's just no doubt in my mind, it's made a huge difference in people's lives.

Brad听 9:08 听
That's awesome. By the way, you don't know this about me. But I've done many, many entrepreneurial startups. But my first venture was a social venture. And so I was working with Chicago house, and we created a Back to Work Project for people with the homeless that were homeless and had AIDS. Got them housing that their families and school people don't think about. Yeah. Yeah. Our first year, we had 160 People went through the program and got full time jobs. Wow. Well, that's well, that's, yeah, it's a big deal. Something I'm proud of, but I'm proud of your work, because hopefully it spurs lots of people to say, instead of just walking by and seeing a problem is actually to take action and do something.

Unknown Speaker听 9:48 听
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the future of our conference, I think bringing this back to you know, originally started as a practitioner conference. Oh, it was it was very at the very beginning and to I mean, we made the switch. And then we also did a we did a hybrid version of practitioner and also academic I was Yes, that one of those is a un in the foundation for social change. And yeah, so it was fun to interact with it, we would definitely, I think, entertain that in the future, and maybe even actually, for 20 of the annual What do you think?

Unknown Speaker听 10:19 听
Yeah, I think I think it's critical. So I think we saw the the phenomenon of social entrepreneurship in practice, grow in the 80s 90s, early 2000s, the startup this conference, mostly with practitioners, and then and then serious people or less serious, really started to think about him to kind of I think it was instrumental in them in the development of the field or the scholarship on the topic. And so we really focused on that you've always been this super strong and smart advocate of saying, let's make sure we have practitioners. Yeah, actually. And so I agree, it's time to kind of go back to make sure that we we foster these connections, as well.

Brad听 11:01 听
The bottom line is it's impact. Yeah. How do you create impact? How do you even measure impact? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker听 11:06 听
that's the biggest theme of the conference is always measuring, we always think about, you know, we're pretty smart. We're university professors we can understand. It is it is.

Brad听 11:18 听
But if you back it all the way down to the individual, you help one person and change their life. That's an incredible feat. And it's in itself. Yeah. And so then you just if you can scale that amazing,

Unknown Speaker听 11:28 听
absolutely, yeah. Well, those connections, I think, connections between, you know, mentors, or more senior scholars, you know, Junior Scholars, really, you know, making making a person scary, or at least also providing a sense of community, but also a safe space to play with those ideas. Whereas more traditional world would be, you know, just a little bit more risk averse to saying, Oh, this is really not I'm not sure where you're going with this, maybe as a place to experiment as much as once it is, which can be, you know, very nurturing at the beginning with the, you know, the correct guardrails to pursue your PhD, I think it'd be very, very fruitful. And the last thing that we were adding, adding back this year is the connection with education because all of us

Jeff听 12:10 听
do. Panels are closing keynote.

Brad听 12:15 听
What have you noticed in awareness in the last 20 years, in the sense of the community's awareness about these social problems? Is there a greater awareness now? Is there a different DNA that's running through students now? 20 years ago? I mean, I think about when I was at university, it seems to be a different world and what the students are focused on.

Unknown Speaker听 12:34 听
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm the Acting Director for our Masters of Science and Social Entrepreneurship at USC, one of the first in the country specialized programs. Yeah, that's yeah. And so, in fact, we also have a specialized program in entrepreneurship. But the demand for both is equal for social and entrepreneurship. Awesome. And you see the students their ideas in terms of, I mean, their ideas for ventures are based on problems that they're experiencing, you know, it's firsthand with them, they want to be able to address it, they want to be able to tackle it, they come in with really fantastic ideas. And it's not only just it's all generation, so we have students that they're in their 40s or in their 50s coming in and coming back to school, and it's they want to make a change, you want to have impact on what they're doing careers.

Unknown Speaker听 13:18 听
Yeah, I think that's great. And I think the first time that has changed, right, I would say like a couple of years ago, six years ago was like this awareness campaigns on Facebook or other social media, where they would see like some reporting of plastic in the ocean, right. And that was kind of the start of their social venture idea. But right now, like these days, the students ventures ideas are way more elaborate and way more firsthand, more thoughtful, much more to do with the environment, you know, yeah, Jeff, and I have mental, social and so on, but much more. Yeah.

Jeff听 13:59 听
And what was their big conclusion?

Unknown Speaker听 14:01 听
Well, they should both learn from one another, from a research standpoint, and we should all talk about how entrepreneurship can help serve the public good.

Jeff听 14:13 听
Many papers we read, it was it was 100. Like, wow, a few of them tried to measure impact, but it's really hard on the environmental side, you would think that would be easier, right? You'd be like, Oh, well, we can just look at these like, you know, ecological parameters and scientists. No, no, really hard, really hard. It's an interesting point for this podcast, and we try to take entrepreneurship research and distill it into actionable insights. I think like, there's an awful lot we've learned about what to tell social entrepreneurs to do and not do, but it's really hard to know. I my view, I'm not critiquing the field in any way. I'm just saying in my view, it's really hard to know how effective that advice is as far as that as far as them for assisting and surviving in their venture and getting the bank dropping, but actually impacting the measure they're trying to. I mean, I think microfinance is a great example. Like Yunus will, of course, win the Nobel Prize, it's well deserved. And then, of course, in the wake of that all these papers come out saying, Yeah, you know, microfinance, not as effective as we might have hoped. And then somebody will say, one of my clients actually does work. And he was like, oh, man, social science is

Unknown Speaker听 15:22 听
tricky. Yeah, measuring impacted knowing that you're doing good and doing well. doesn't always translate, you can have the negative social impact, the dark side, social entrepreneurship, the implications for that. And if you do a program, that's not working, imagine the effect that you'll have within a community of another entrepreneur or social entrepreneur coming in and trying to make a difference, you know,

Brad听 15:44 听
really, really interesting. But I would say, as an entrepreneur, if you recognize a problem, you don't let perfection stand in your way of attacking the problem, right? You if you can just start impacts one person or one group or one issue at a time, you got to try?

Unknown Speaker听 15:59 听
Absolutely, yeah, I think I was that an insight, I thought was pretty good.

Jeff听 16:06 听
actionable insight,

Unknown Speaker听 16:07 听
I was gonna say that I totally agree with you. And this idea of, you know, measuring impact has to be brought down in terms of levels of analysis, you have these daunting societal challenges that

Unknown Speaker听 16:24 听
if you can, you know, bring it down to the individual lives that you've helped which you express through example, of the Chicago based social ventures, that's one where you can think about how individuals as well are changed, right? It's like, not so much like, how many, but also, what kind of changes do you see for themselves for their families? Do you see over time, right there many dimensions of impact measurement? And the second one, I think, is community, like, you know, measuring impact at the community. It starts maybe from one individual, but then how do you measure the spread of that impact? Level

Brad听 16:58 听
impact is so big on the individuals that they actually begin to, like, it's the six degrees of separation, they begin to be the ripples and in the effectuate that should actually

Unknown Speaker听 17:11 听
being able to starting from there kind of bottom up, I think is a little daunting.

Unknown Speaker听 17:16 听
It's like individuals, families and society. Yeah, we always we looked at it, you know, a couple of years ago, we did. So this was in collaboration with McKinsey, and then Foundation Center. And so this was a two year study, basically looking at all the measures of how do you measure social impact assessment tools, 150 tools, basically a two year study with about almost 100 practitioners and thought leaders in the in the field. And what came out of that was a very, very practical tool and a portal, where any social entrepreneur investor funder NGO, could go up and actually see within sectors like what are some of the best practices for measuring impact is that tool set up and running? It's called, so Tracy, the tools and resources for assessing social impact. Cool. So it's still, that's still up there. But it was, but it was a great collaboration. Because what happened is it started at our conference, then McKinsey was a part of it. So McKinsey came in, and their social sector office came in and asked us to collaborate with them, and professors too, as well. So for two years, we went through this whole kind of, you know, assessment process, and the research behind it, and then made it very practical for the entrepreneurs to to actually find these tools. That's also

Sophie Bacq听 18:28 听
and one takeaway, let's see if it's good too.

Unknown Speaker听 18:39 听
The realization and the reminder to me that we're all hunting for this one impact metric. But what I found is that there were about like, 200 different ways of measuring impact in practice. And so I think it speaks to the idiosyncrasy of the social change solutions and the ways of measuring impact. Sometimes we're in the quest for the wrong metric.

Jeff听 19:02 听
If you're an entrepreneur, then and you look at that, and you're like trying to get one of your students who's trying to start a venture to impact some social problem. And they say, like, I'm just not sure how to measure my impact. What do we tell? Like?

Jill Kickul听 19:14 听
Yeah,

Jeff听 19:15 听
I'm putting you guys on the spot. I have no idea.

Unknown Speaker听 19:17 听
Yeah, well, it goes back to I mean, really, the fundamentals of theory of change, right. And you measure you measure outputs and outcomes first, because those are the easiest things, to be able to monitor and measure. You just say, I mean, real simply what I tell my students track three or four outcomes, just three or four outcomes, basically, you're you're heading for that large impact, do three or four outcomes first. And, yeah, and start from there. I mean, it's,

Jeff听 19:45 听
I like that one.

Brad听 19:48 听
So So I agree. 100%. The bottom line is, you need to stay authentic to who you are, and what does impact mean to you. And if when we when we're talking about the small scale that we're discussing here, when and you're just getting into this, what what feels right to you as an individual, I think that that actually is very meaningful, because it allows you to persist. And if you don't feel good about what you're doing, that's not gonna be anything that's gonna,

Jill Kickul听 20:13 听
well, it's not going to be sustainable, right? It's not gonna be it's,

Jeff听 20:16 听
you know, I'm just sitting here, I'm sitting here thinking about going tomorrow and seeing all these bright young PhD students presenting, I think it how applicable, everything that was just said, and like the last 1015 minutes of the podcast, at least, applies absolutely to PhD students as

Unknown Speaker听 20:32 听
we think about I mean, like, what they're what they're measuring, or what they're trying out, they're

Jeff听 20:36 听
really interested in starting their research program. And yeah, I'm sure you guys I know, I do deal with students who are very bright, and they want to like change the world through their PhD research, they want to do like social entrepreneurship, environmental entrega. And it's like, Okay, I'm gonna go track all the UN Sustainable Development Goals, I might well good luck with that, buddy.

Why don't you pick one in one community to track that, and on three different dimensions, but more was thinking was the idea of doing something you actually are passionate about? I just, I don't know. I think that's to me, coming back to the conference at all. I think that's what role this conference plays in particular, that is so very important to let people know that, hey, look, there's a lot of smart people that have been successful in academia and publish their papers and gotten professional, whatever measure you have of quote, unquote, success. And you can do that too, and do stuff, you're passionate. In fact, you're gonna be more likely to succeed if you do something you're passionate about. I started messaging people getting PhD programs a lot.

Unknown Speaker听 21:45 听
And also, probably more the passion runs out, in some ways.

Jeff听 21:49 听
Up topic. Yeah, we'll study this thing. Because yeah, someone will publish it. And then it turns out, no, they won't. And you're like, Oh, I didn't care about that.

Unknown Speaker听 22:00 听
I think that's a great insight in parallel between, you know, social entrepreneurship research and being a PhD students, what you said earlier about, you know, like the intrinsic motive and passion, what you said about, you know, having a sustaining impact, come back to what you believe in. And I think one element that we might see more of on the programs in the coming years, is this idea of values. We talk about social value creation, right, as opposed to a comic value should the values Yeah, I think it is, it's been a little overlooked so far, and from an experienced entrepreneur that you are, you're sharing that it matters nothing.

Jeff听 22:40 听
Professor Michael congar, at Miami, Ohio, topics. Oh, there'll be School of Business. And the podcast and the podcast,

Jill Kickul听 22:51 听
presented a number of times.

Jeff听 22:55 听
Before I know, we're running out of time, because Jill actually has to go teach a class unfortunately. What is one of your favorite memories from the conference? Just anything? Like I mean, I have lots but I just

Unknown Speaker听 23:07 听
mean, the one I booked earlier, it's just one of community and bonding is the cake that set the place on fire nine o'clock in the morning.

Sophie Bacq听 23:29 听
15 minutes for cutting in and

Jeff听 23:31 听
the whole conference is running behind.

How about you, Joe? What's one of your favorite memories? Oh, that's a wonderful kick at

Jill Kickul听 23:48 听
nine o'clock in the morning.

Sophie Bacq听 23:52 听
We did the UN

Jill Kickul听 23:54 听
Foundation for social change. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker听 23:56 听
The one thing we haven't mentioned is we have a long tradition of a best paper award $5,000 sponsored by the Johnson Center for Entrepreneurship and Innovation at Indiana University. School of Business. Yeah. Yes.

Jeff听 24:15 听
This podcast is brought to you by the leaf school.

Unknown Speaker听 24:19 听
Several of these best paper awards have been published in cluding years with very good journals. Yeah.

Jeff听 24:28 听
That's actually my favorite memory of this conference. Winning the best

Jill Kickul听 24:35 听
guys were so surprised

Jeff听 24:37 听
was at the time she was she was pregnant. She had come over from the UK because we were presenting the paper she was very committed, I guess my co author Isabel O'Neill and I'm also she's listening. We love you, Isabel. And we go and she's like, oh, you know, I can't do an English accent. Well, I'm gonna try but she's just a baby. Different English accent she's like, Oh, just don't don't fancy well when, like, Well, me either, but we should go. It'll be fun. And yeah, we'll see our friends and then we won. She was just so flabbergasted. She was so stunned. And what you guys did not know is that the paper had just been rejected that

Jill Kickul听 25:17 听
you guys were down and out.

Jeff听 25:21 听
For me, it was a big deal for Isabel. It was a bigger deal. She was in kind of a vulnerable place her career and you know, she traveled over jetlag. Just got rejected, and then we won that award. It really made us persevere with that project. You're what you do at the conference. Massive big difference. Yeah, it really does. Five grand. Oh, well.

Jill Kickul听 25:44 听
25. You're in New York City. So yeah.

Jeff听 25:48 听
My wife is not listening to this podcast. So I took all the students out drinking as I recall, I usually do when I win awards. So anyway.

Brad听 25:56 听
So I have I have two thoughts and two takeaways so far from our discussion today. Number one, thank you for coming it for me. It was an honor to meet you thought leaders like this that are trying to change the world. I think that that's fabulous. We need more people like you from the heart because that's a passion of mine. I love it. And the other thing that I learned today is if I need to go and listen to a PhD student present a paper, I bring in the Bloody Mary.

Jeff听 26:24 听
We gotta go man, and cheer him on. It's gonna be awesome. Oh, Jill, Sophie, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having us. So great to see both of you. I haven't seen either of you, and so on. And usually, it's really hard to see whether they're fabulous. And

Unknown Speaker听 26:39 听
so that's partner in crime with Gil, longtime friendship. And this is just fun.

Jeff听 26:45 听
The conference is just amazing. The personality is two wonderful people. And so that was Joe Kikko, professor at the University of Southern California Marshall School of Business. And so he buck, the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. He co hosts of the 19th annual social entrepreneurship Research Conference starting tomorrow morning, bright and early. We'll be there at 8am breakfast. I'm sure Brad will be many 10. I'll be there. So if he I'm sure you will be.

Sophie Bacq听 27:13 听
If not, I'd be here. And once

Jeff听 27:15 听
again coming to you from high definition brewing in downtown LA. I'm Jeff York, research director at the Leeds School of Business Deming Center for Entrepreneurship. I listen to doing some research on maybe we can change it. That'd be cool. Got a lot going on the Deming center. We do we do have a lot of social history. And my co host Hi, I'm Brad

Brad听 27:31 听
Warner and the faculty director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship. I'm an entrepreneur and it's been a thrill to be with all these fine folks in Los Angeles.

Jeff听 27:39 听
Absolutely. Here's the story of the conference. Cheers. Cheers. Oh.

Stefani H听 27:46 听
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Creative Distillation recorded live on location at Hi Def Brewing in downtown Los Angeles. Learn more and order merch and soda at . Learn more about Jill Kickul . You'll find more about Sophie Bacq . We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas email us at cdpodcast@colorado.edu, and please be sure to subscribe to Creative Distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The Creative Distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the 麻豆影院's Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu. That's d-e-m-ing and click the Creative Distillation link. Creative Distillation is produced by Joel Davis at Analog Digital Arts. Our theme music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" performed by your humble host, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here for the next round of Creative Distillation. If you've enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy Leeds Business Insights, check them out at .

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